[Techtalk] Re: Techtalk digest, Vol 1 #154 - 5 msgs

Mon Oct 29 10:33:36 EST 2001

Yes.. This is an EXCELLENT idea. I've only been a Linux user for 12 months &
I would wholeheartedly support a Beginners' List..

Great Stuff,
Rhea Bonsey
----- Original Message -----
From: <techtalk-request at linuxchix.org>
To: <techtalk at linuxchix.org>
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 7:01 AM
Subject: Techtalk digest, Vol 1 #154 - 5 msgs

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Subject: [Techtalk] Proposal: A beginner's list. (Raena
Lea-Shannon)
>    2. Re: Subject: [Techtalk] Proposal: A beginner's list. (Jeff Dike)
>    3. Re: Subject: [Techtalk] Proposal: A beginner's list. (Michelle
Murrain)
>    4. Re: Subject: [Techtalk] Proposal: A beginner's list. (Betty Johnson)
>    5. Re: Proposal: A beginner's list. (Conor Daly)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:16:23 +1100
> From: Raena Lea-Shannon <raen7 at ihug.com.au>
> To: techtalk at linuxchix.org, grrltalk at linuxchix.org
> Subject: Re: Subject: [Techtalk] Proposal: A beginner's list.
>
> techtalk-request at linuxchix.org wrote:
>
>
>
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:19:48 +1000
> > From: Mary Gardiner <linuxchix at puzzling.org>
> > To: techtalk at linuxchix.org, grrltalk at linuxchix.org
> > Reply-To: grrltalk at linuxchix.org
> > Subject: [Techtalk] Proposal: A beginner's list.
> >
> > Hi techtalk,
> >
> > Eli made a suggestion on grrltalk this morning that a beginners list be
> > made.
> >
> > techtalk has been growing in traffic and diversity and it has been
> > suggested that beginners would feel more comfortable having their own
> > list. We expect that experienced Linux users will be welcome to join and
> > answer questions, but that the list will exist to help people with those
> > first hard weeks/months of using Linux, and for anyone who has a really
> > 'simple' question to ask.
> >
> > Jenn just wants us to determine the level of need. People who have
> > thoughts should reply to this mail. I've set Reply-To to grrltalk.
> >
> > -Mary.
> >
> > --
> > Mary Gardiner
> > <mary at puzzling.org>
> >
> > -- __--__--
>
> Dear grrltalk (and techtalk as I am not on grrltalk list (yet))
>
> I am definitely in favour of this. I installed Linux 6 months ago and am
only beginning to get to know my way
> around and often have questions so dumb I fear for myself.  This list and
Linuxchix links has helped alot.
>
> Aprrehended ridicule is a real problem, expecially if you are like me and
come from Windoze and had no other
> choice. (In most businesses where I work Mac is not considered a desk top
option, Linux is anthema). For the
> really simple things, as well as referring to faq's maybe Linuxchix could
have a Beginner's faq too? The Linuxchix
> links are the most useful I have come across. The Newbie stuff is great.
But the problem for Beginners like
> myself is that I (we) are even less evolved than most Newbies. I get the
impression that a Newbie is a fairly
> experienced sysadmin with (compared to  User Beginner) medium to high
computer literacy in Windoze or Mac or
> sometimes a Unix flavour and is checking out Linux.
>
> What is missed is the Newbie *User*, the  clutz, the truly madly deeply
dummy, the so-called Weapons Grade User
> with no clue or enough of an idea to do serious self harm then never
return to Linux.  All they (we, though I
> think there is some hope for maybe some us to one day set our sites
higher) want is an inexpensive desk top,
> access to the internet and to do their office or home work with as little
interruption from the bsod as possible.
> ie., what serious Linux tekkies think of as cockroaches scurrying cross
their platform. I have been trodden on by
> at least one list trying to get at some basic info. It hurts
>
> This is the hardest to cater for becuase the pov is entirely lost in
Windows that they (we) cannot see out of. I
> think that there will be alot more Windoze Users waking up to Linux when
they look at how much it will cost them
> to upgrade to the new M$ XP-ensive and have to buy a new computer to run
its bloated OS and fit all the proprietry
> software the encryption the security, etc etc that goes with it.  It is
just possible that at least some small
> businesses may have to serioulsy consider cheaper alternatives for the
desk top and the office LAN. It would be
> great for Linux if this did happen and great for Linuxchix if it had a
list and faq linx and intro info to cater
> for this sort of Beginner, as distinct from the sysadmin Newbie.
>
> Raena
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> To: Raena Lea-Shannon <raen7 at ihug.com.au>
> cc: techtalk at linuxchix.org, grrltalk at linuxchix.org
> Subject: Re: Subject: [Techtalk] Proposal: A beginner's list.
> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:42:15 -0500
> From: Jeff Dike <jdike at karaya.com>
>
> raen7 at ihug.com.au said:
> > I am definitely in favour of this. I installed Linux 6 months ago and
> > am only beginning to get to know my way around and often have
> > questions so dumb I fear for myself.
>
> How is techtalk not suitable for this?  As far as I'm aware, all remotely
> technical questions of any level are asked and answered here.
>
> Is it that it doesn't have "Newbie *User*, the  clutz, the truly madly
deeply
> dummy, the so-called Weapons Grade User" in the name, so the weapons grade
> users stay away, thinking that we are far too intellectual and advanced
for
> them and we'll just laugh at their silly questions?
>
> If so, why not just change the name or something?  As precedent for this,
> there's an IRC channel called #kernelnewbies which a number of kernel hack
ers
> hang out on which doesn't seem to scare away the newbies.  Maybe techtalk
> could do something similar.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:58:40 -0500
> To: techtalk at linuxchix.org, grrltalk at linuxchix.org
> From: Michelle Murrain <tech at murrain.net>
> Subject: Re: Subject: [Techtalk] Proposal: A beginner's list.
>
> At 11:16 PM 10/27/2001, Raena Lea-Shannon wrote:
> >I am definitely in favour of this. I installed Linux 6 months ago and am
> >only beginning to get to know my way
> >around and often have questions so dumb I fear for myself.  This list and
> >Linuxchix links has helped alot.
> >
> >Aprrehended ridicule is a real problem, expecially if you are like me and
> >come from Windoze and had no other
> >choice. (In most businesses where I work Mac is not considered a desk top
> >option, Linux is anthema). For the
> >really simple things, as well as referring to faq's maybe Linuxchix could
> >have a Beginner's faq too?
>
> <snip>
>
> I actually am not in favor of this. Let me explain why:
>
> 1) I think that linuxchix is without a doubt has the most amazing
> combination of expertise and friendliness I've ever encountered in a
> technology list. I do understand that many newbies are afraid of potential
> ridicule, but I can't even remember an example of a newbie posting and
> getting a bad response.
>
> 2) We are all beginners at *something*. Even though I've been using linux
> now for 5 years, I *still* consider myself a newbie - there is so much I
> don't know yet - so much to learn - so even I learn stuff from "newbie"
> questions. Happens all the time.
>
> I am in favor of a newbie FAQ - which might not need much but good links
to
> linuxnewbie.org, or the LDP. It will help newbies, and it will help folks
> who try to help newbies - instead of reinventing answers - we could just
> refer to the FAQ.
>
> (Does anyone know how to get mailman to display randomly the contents of a
> file in the footer? If someone can set that up, we could have a set of
very
> short linux tips and links that get randomly generated from a list. I've
> seen it done in other lists.)
>
> .Michelle
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Michelle Murrain, Ph.D.
> tech at murrain.net
> AIM:pearlbear0
> http://www.murrain.net/public_key.html for pgp public key
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> From: Betty Johnson <bettyj at telusplanet.net>
> To: Techtalk at linuxchix.org
> Subject: Re: Subject: [Techtalk] Proposal: A beginner's list.
> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:19:32 -0600
>
> Hi everyone
>
> OK I would like to respond to this proposal
>
> I have been a member of this list for a couple of years but it is only in
the
> last few months that I have actually had a Linux box up and running, so I
am
> definitely a newbie when it comes to Linux.
>
> On the other hand, I have been working with computers for many years,
working
> as a Computer Support Tech in a Windows environment so I am not a newbie
as
> far as computers are concerned.
>
> I think it is a good idea to have a newbie FAQ and links to information
for
> newbies, but I would not want to have a separate list because the Linux
> "experts" would not necessarily want to be part of a newbie list and it is
> possible that we would not get answers to our questions.
>
> And listening to more advanced problems pushes me to a higher level in
> wanting to learn more and more.
>
> So I think we are a Linux users group and that is what we have in common,
but
> recognizing that our levels of knowledge and ability will differ a great
> deal, but as long as we are here to help each other out, I do not see the
> need for a separate list.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Techtalk mailing list
> > Techtalk at linuxchix.org
> > http://www.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/techtalk
>
> --
> Betty Johnson, MCP
> Edmonton AB
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:08:20 +0000
> From: Conor Daly <conor.daly at oceanfree.net>
> To: techtalk at linuxchix.org, grrltalk at linuxchix.org
> Subject: Re: [Techtalk] Proposal: A beginner's list.
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 11:19:48AM +1000 or so it is rumoured hereabouts,
> Mary Gardiner thought:
> > Hi techtalk,
> >
> > Eli made a suggestion on grrltalk this morning that a beginners list be
> > made.
> >
> > techtalk has been growing in traffic and diversity and it has been
> > suggested that beginners would feel more comfortable having their own
> > list. We expect that experienced Linux users will be welcome to join and
> > answer questions, but that the list will exist to help people with those
> > first hard weeks/months of using Linux, and for anyone who has a really
> > 'simple' question to ask.
> >
> > Jenn just wants us to determine the level of need. People who have
> > thoughts should reply to this mail. I've set Reply-To to grrltalk.
>
> I don't want to put a damper on the idea but there are dangers in an
> exclusive newbie list.  Quoting Rick Moen [1]:
>
> :  The social dynamic there involved a horde of fearful new users and a
> :  small number of rather smug, less-than-half-clued people giving out
> :  dribbles of often quite bad "help" with a professorial air.
> :
> :  The local "experts" didn't really have much idea what they were talking
> :  about, but they got the personal satisfaction of being big fish in a
> :  very small pond.  The newbies were grateful; the "help" they got was
> :  often quite wrong, but there was nobody present to tell them that.
And,
> :  indeed, being "negative" was very strongly frowned on, so correcting
the
> :  process was basically forbidden.
>
> There is a bit of a danger of newbies getting isolated and being fearful
> of "moving up" to the "experienced" list(s).  As it is, the experts who
> aren't interested in answering newbie questions [2] can just ignore them
> while there are experts around to correct answers like
>
> "You had to reinstall Windows and now linux won't boot?  Just reinstall
> linux and all will be fine"
>
> So long as a newbie doesn't feel intimidated [3], they will post and be
> helped.
>
> Conor
>
> [1]  Those of us who know [4] and love (or otherwise) Rick
>      (http://linuxmafia.com) will know that, despite his often lofty,
>      condescending and irritating style, he does talk quite a deal of
sense.
> [2]  I'm not suggesting that *all* the experts here don't like newbie
>      questions but I'm sure some don't.
> [3]  The tone of conversation around here is anything but intimidating!  I
>      really enjoy being here..
> [4]  Through the lists in my case, I haven't met him.
> --
> Conor Daly <conor.daly at oceanfree.net>
>
> Domestic Sysadmin :-)
> ---------------------
> Faenor.cod.ie
>   8:33am  up 135 days,  9:56,  0 users,  load average: 0.08, 0.02, 0.01
> Hobbiton.cod.ie
>   8:38am  up 30 days, 16:05,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
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> End of Techtalk Digest