[IndiChix] Website [was] Bangalore Meeting Minutes :: 2008Jan19

[Hassath]

Hi Pooja, and others.

"Be Polite, Be Helpful" - I think that's getting forgotten.

I've been on this list from almost the very beginning, though I've
been mostly silent.

[Before I write any more, I would like to emphasise that I don't know
any of the people mentioned personally, nor have met any of them
(except Sulamita Garcia, very briefly). And whatever I write is based
on what I have seen on this list. I was not at the BoF session, for
example, nor at any of the city meets.]

Pooja, I read your mail this evening, and have a few comments, based
on the information I have from this list.

On Jan 26, 2008 9:15 AM, Pooja Agrawal <mailofpooja at yahoo.com> wrote:

> When Swati and I started this project,  Atul and VaibhaV let us use the
> space on the sever. We envisioned that this was always about cultivating a
> group for the technically inclined women.

Which is very nice, and I know that Vaibhav at least has been thanked
on this list for his help. Of course, when you say 'this project', I
am presuming that you mean the website.

The first mention of the website on the (indianlc) list (and that list
WAS the beginning of the indian linuxchix) was by Sulamita in this
post of hers:
http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/private/indichix/2005-December/000273.html
"So I beg to Swati and Pooja to build that webpage they promise me to
do, about Linuxchix India."

To which Swati replied with her very first post to the list saying
that they (she and you, Pooja) will get started on it:
http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/private/indichix/2005-December/000276.html

After that, Swati posted that the domain had been registered (!), with
no consultation or discussion. There was some talk about posting on
the list for comments and suggestions after you had done some work.
The only thing that was posted was an 'intro to the list', and after
that, nothing.
http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/private/indichix/2005-December/000290.html

In April 2007 when Runa wrote asking about linuxchix.org.in, and she
cc-ed Pooja too, who replied, but only towards the end of May:(quoting
from two posts)

"Me and Swati wanted
to start the chapter but did not get many people who could help us
with the website. Looks like there are some people who are interested.
I will discuss with her and we all can decide a plan of action."
"Hello Runa, Vid and all,
The page linuxchix.org.in is available for the group.There are some things we
have to discuss:
1) Is there someone/few girls who can take the role of webmistress/webmistresses
and hence be responsible for the content. If yes, please send me an email and I
will give you the access rights. Everybody will contribute but that group of
people would be responsible for monitoring.
2) Do we have a plan for the layout/content ?
I am so pleased to see some enthusiasm in the Indian group now."

Now, that doesn't sound like you had many people willing to help, does
it, unlike what you have said:

> There is also an
> implication in the above statement that we do not have enough *folks* who
> are willing to help. That is just contrary to the situation that we have at
> hand. There are people who are willing to help and have been involved from
> day 0 in the project but are being alienated by categorizing them as men or
> NRI's

I see no such implication. As for alienating volunteers by
categorizing them as men, or NRIs, that's not true at all. All that I
have heard on the list is that men are welcome to participate and help
out, and we need their help, but the decision making should be done by
the women- the only way to learn.

> If there is a problem with the
> hosting service let us list those issues and address them.

Maybe you missed it, but that's exactly what Vid has been repeatedly
trying to do. With no response from Vaibhav.

> I am curious if the LC people you are talking about are based in India. One
> of the volunteers was rejected because she is not living in India. Before
> doing that was it thought through of how much of the work that she was
> volunteering to do requires her physical presence?

What I am curious about is why *you* are bringing up Gayathri's
application being rejected, when Gayatri herself has indicated that
she understands and has no problem with it.

> What if one of the list / domain admins or the person who
> maintains the website travels outside India for work for an extended
> period of time, you will kick them out and change all WHOIS information
> for the domain and login information and everything else? And then
> change it back when they are back?

Well, the whois record for linuxchix.org.in seems to have been
changed- and there's only Swati Sani's name there. Care to explain
what's going on in this real case, instead of posing hypothetical
questions?

> This is like assuming that Free and Open Source projects can be
> contributed to only by people who do everything only for free just
> because of the word "Free" in it!

Sorry, I fail to see the connection.

> Mailman, it was not technically possible for him to have it on the same box
> and thats why he clearly mentioned it.

"Clearly mentioned it"? Where and when and to whom? Not on this list, for sure.
On this list what he said was far far from helpful or encouraging:
http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/private/indichix/2007-December/000615.html
"Yahoogroups is used by countless number of heavy activity mailing
lists without issues. I personally started and manage a few of these.
It just needs to be configured right."

I wish he hadn't stopped there, but suggested how to configure the list better.

> If you understand it technically this is not a big deal.
>  Point the MX of a sub-domain to some other box and host whatever list
>  you want there.

Since you understand this technically, how come you didn't suggest it earlier?

> I still do not get the point. How is seeking help from LC better than people
> who are already involved in the project and can help?

And who are these people? If you mean Vaibhav, he has been asked about
the domain a number of times in the recent past, and he has not
bothered to respond. Even though he continues to be subscribed to the
list. As for seeking help from the main linuxchix, you did say:

"We registered linuxchix.org.in because -
1) The Brazil page is called linuxchix.org.br
2) It looks good if it looks like extenstions of linuxchix.org because
we get all our inspiration from the original page."
http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/private/indichix/2005-December/000294.html

You seem to have thought it was a good idea to associate with LC then.
If you have reasons which made you change your opinion, we would like
to know too.

> It is sad to see that
> group is loosing focus and concentrating on gender war.

Losing focus? Sorry, you are mistaken- On the contrary, after the BoF,
the group appears to have gained some focus. The wiki is getting
populated, people are doing local meet-ups, list admin work is being
handed over, and Vid's post was for the domain and website to be with
the girls now.

As for gender war - it sounds exciting, but I must have missed it.

> There were technical problems with having mailman on the same box

Again, why are *you* the one saying this? Why didn't Vaibhav say so on
the list at the time? And if there are 'technical problems', can't
they be discussed here? Or is this list only for
technologically-challenged women?

> Please get your facts straight before pointing fingers on people.

That's really highly uncalled for rudeness.

> http://planet.linuxchix.org.in has been up and active for a while now.

How come it was not mentioned on the list- at least that work is going
on on it? Is this some clique which will do all the work (or at least
claim to) in secret and then spring it upon the group like this? Where
is the openness and transparency?

> If you have been in close communication with your fellow volunteers and had more time to actually concentrate on technical
> details you would have known this.

Close communication where, and which volunteers? I haven't seen
anything about this on the list.

> Who said nothing happened and why?

You did. Same quote as earlier: "Me and Swati wanted to start the
chapter but did not get many people who could help us
with the website."
http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/private/indichix/2007-May/000539.html

> You think none of the volunteers got access?
> I myself created access rights for 3 women on the group.

Interesting. And how come they or you never mentioned this earlier? Or
offer to put up stuff?

> Square one? What is that? You mean the group a year back is no different
> than what it is now? What is holding it back? Let me guess, all the men
> and also the women who are not in India?

Oh, please, we can do without the sarcasm.
As for what Vid said, I understood that she meant the website, and not
the group as a whole.

> Power?  Hosting and domain are two very different things. Once a domain is
> paid for, there is nothing that needs to be done for years.

Maybe it's because you believe that you need to do nothing, that
people are left wondering for weeks if linuxchix.org.in can be used by
the group.

And if there is no power involved in holding a domain, it shouldn't be
a big deal to transfer it either.

> A female student from a local college interested in learning new
> technologies would not be bothered with who owns the domain and who has
> the password to the lists and all the "control" items.

(I don't see why this female student is relevant here, but I'll respond anyway)
Yeah? Like I said, she'd just have to wait more than a month before
knowing that she can actually work on a website. And to be granted ssh
rights or to make any changes to the DNS, well, she might have to wait
forever.

> Domain names are not what they used to be in the past. Once they are set
> up, other than paying for it, you do not have to do *anything* with it
> anymore. And that is all that we have done for the past few years.

Including not responding to requests. Right.

> I really feel sad to see that the people who encouraged us in the project
> are labeled as *those men*.

Care to quote when they were labelled as such? I must have missed that too.

-- 
- Hassath