[techtalk] Sick of surf and porn addicts

[Martin.Caitlyn at epamail.epa.gov]

Hi,

> Oh so now suddenly James decides to Be Specific.

While I disagree vehemently with some of James' views, in all fairness he
was specific to the EU from the outset.  That became less clear as the
thread went on, and I'm not at all sure that's his fault.  The thing we all
need to remember, IMHO, is that this is a very international list, with a
very diverse set of views and perspectives.

> But not while you're on my payroll, and not using my equipment and not
> using my telephone, and not using my internet connection.  I, as a
> private employer, have every right to monitor what goes on with my stuff,
> including what my employees do with my stuff.  And if you want to store
> porn on my disk drive, you can bloody well get your walking papers.

> It's misuse of company equipment.  Worse, it's misuse of *MY* stuff.

Even more, I am paying my employees, in this situation, to do things not
related to work at all.  If I pay for an eight hour day, or pay even more
for overtime, I expect to get eight (or more) hours of productivity.  If
someone is surfing on company time they are, in effect, stealing my payroll
money.  This is one place where I really do believe privacy ends, and I
feel that the US has got it right and the EU dead wrong.  The nice thing
about living in free societies (which both mostly are) is that if we don't
like something we can lobby to change it.

> Sure, if employees need to make the occasional local personal phone call,
> to look up their favorite band or movie during breaks, and particularly
> to read work relevant web publications and even local or international
> newspapers -- yeah, sure.  There's a lot of benefit in that.  But it is
> quietly logged somewhere.

Agreed.  It is a matter of common sense and company policy.  I did a
contract at a company that forbade even such use of their network.  Their
argument was that it slowed down Internet access for people doing
legitimate company business.  IMHO, it was their right to enforce such a
prohibition, but it made for really poor morale.  Common sense should be
the guiding factor.

> If the EU has its head so far up its hindquarters that it doesn't
> allow private employers to monitor and regulate the use of company
> infrastructure, then no wonder the EU is so far uh..."behind."

I agree with what you are saying but I do think your choice of language is
very inappropriate.  Within the EU, historically, different countries had
very different views of privacy rights.  When the EU adopted a common law
they erred, IMHO, by ignoring the rights of employers to insure that they
were getting a fair days work for a fair days pay.  That is my opinion, and
it would seem to be yours as well.  However, if the people of the EU like
it that way we, as foreigners, have no right whatsoever to tell them how to
run their own country (or technically, still countries).  If EU companies
feel that their rights are being violated in this way they can appeal to
their own legal system or members of parliament.  I think if we want others
to respect our rights and sovereignty, we need to likewise respect theirs.
I am certain we can get into an equally heated discussion about the
differences in law between New Zealand (your country) and the United States
(mine).

> I'd tell that gal in Belgium if she wants to do the right thing by
> her employer, but is hamstrung by stupid EU "privacy" laws -- log
> everything anyway, perform the analysis, and simply be extremely
> careful whom she shows it to and who she tells about it.

I would never, ever advise someone to break the law.  In this country (the
US) you might even have some liability for doing so.  Besides, what if she
doesn't consider her laws stupid?  Who are you, thousands of miles away in
New Zealand, to tell her what is right and wrong with her legal system?

> It's a lot simpler in the US.  NZ has stricter privacy laws, but
> they certainly do not extend to allowing employees to do whatever
> the heck they want on company time.

The problem, when weighing individual vs. either collective (societal) or
corporate rights, is to strike a balance.  Clearly you like the balance
which both the US and New Zealand have struck and dislike what you feel is
a situation out of balance in the EU.  That certainly is a debatable point,
however.

>> And of course, I sometimes wonder if I just think our system is
basically
>> okay because it's what I've been taught since I was just a wee tot. So,
>> thanks for the outside input, James. It really does help.
>>

> Um, help what?  Help build a culture of lazy surfing children who think
> the world owes them a living because they know how to operate a browser
> and a word processor--oh, and really think they know computers because
> they've installed Linux somewhere?  We've already GOT that.  Sheesh.

No, you missed Kai's point entirely.  (S)he (gender neutral name, there)
thanked James for a different viewpoint from a different country.  Even if
I disagree with James, I agree with Kai.  The more differing viewpoints,
the more perspectives, the better my picture of an issue becomes.  I'm
mostly on the political left, but that doesn't stop me from reading
rightist or centrist publications and trying to understand their viewpoint.
If anything, I'm better at debating an issue if I understand where the
other side is coming from.

All the best,
Caity